Where are all the girls in the exec elections?! Have you lot scared them all off... I think the society will need to do something to ensure it doesn't get its first ever all male exec, or it could end missing that certain something which only females can provide... style, elegance, beauty (all things crucial in mathematics!) which I feel Kat, Jenny and I provided this year.

Oh, come on, I bring a certain level of beauty and style to the exec! More than I can say for Tom... But, y'know :P

Jamie

Hang on. Someone should lock this thread under equal ops. Such flagrant sexism from katie...

Men are as capable of beauty and style as women are of machismo, strength and courage. To suggest otherwise is to p*ss on all our chips: we are united as one species, men and women, brothers and sisters in arms. A team is only as strong as the ties that bind it close- the ties you severed with your scissors of hate.

No, this post-feminist vaginal elitism has gone far enough! I for one am currently setting light to my boxer shorts.

P.S. Jamie smells.

What precisely does 'post-feminist vaginal elitism' mean? Forget that, what does 'post-feminist' mean? Feminism is still going!

Check out Ariel Levy's 'Female Chauvanist Pigs' for a good evaluation of where feminism stands today. It's really quite eye-opening.

I've read a couple of reviews of it actually, and it's precisely the sort of thing I am rallying against. The post feminist, as she sees it, is little more than a self abasing thug with breasts: a subscription to long outdated male ideals. It is a growing phenomenon, in a culture that has abandoned belief in a higher power, to abandon also belief in any higher truth and slump to easy relativism: "you are an individual!"

Every day the same 'individual antics', a race descending into grinning f*ckchimps. Culture, Art, Love: these things exist only in a world of social contract, of cooperation and discussion- this mutual masturbation of the sexes is little more than jumping on the bed when there's noone else home. On the sheets your parents had so carefully pressed.

I spoke with my tongue firmly lodged in my cheek but I raised a serious point: Women as a whole are coming to a position where they can raise the bar for men, and vice versa: but as long as we stick to easy answers, justifying our immaturity with 'self evident' relativism, we can never build a society capable of nurturing those precious things that make being human special.

Tom and I discussed this in the workroom, but for everyone else's benefit:

It seems the reviews you read were very misleading. Ariel Levy is trying to highlight the problem of these 'post-feminists' - participants in what she calls 'Raunch Culture'. This Raunch Culture tells women that to be sexually liberated they must buy lingerie, go to strip clubs with the guys and, above all, have lots of sex. "But I don't want to watch a woman as she takes off her clothes for money." "Well then," says Raunch Culture, "you're a prude."

The tenets of this Raunch Culture are just one form of sexual liberation, and probably not the best form either: To echo the words of Gloria Steinem, it seems to me that a girl buying Playboy stationery is like a Jew buying a Third Reich coffee cup. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9b3_05qL7k for some comedy about something slightly related.) It's upsetting how so many girls think that watching Carrie Bradshaw on Sex and the City constantly define herself by her relationships with men is women's liberation. What's more upsetting is how this Raunch Culture is affecting even pre-teen girls: a thong for ages 7-8 is a terrible thing for a shop to sell.

I don't know what the solution is. But first we must highlight the problem, something that Levy's book does brilliantly. (If you do read it then you'll see that I've ripped off it quite badly.)

I've heard a few people mention this now. Or, maybe just heard Dan mention it on several non-consecutive occasions. Either way, I might give it a go. Would it be in the library?

If not, then it sounds as if it definitely should be

Alas there are no copies in the Library. It's under £10 (incl. p&p) on Amazon though.

I'm happy to lend my copy to anyone, although at the moment someone I lent it to has it. Plus I've promised a couple of people I'd lend it to them. I guess some sort of queue could be formed...

Btw, is it interesting that, apart from the first post, all the posts have been by men?

Well, there are no women on the forums either. This is getting pretty dire, are we all that unattractive and off-putting?

yes

Frankly aside from sarah three/ some crash course requests, katie's was pretty much the first girl post we've had on the forums: it's a sad fact that these forums seem pretty cliquey to all and sundry, and forums in general are not girl friendly (there's a fantastic xkcd on the subject that i'm far too inept to find).

As far as cliqueyness is concerned: the trouble is, that what is often most funny is so by way of obscure references, and to take the private jokes out of a conversation is often to remove humour and personality in one foul swoop. We must temper (as in feminism!) our inclusiveness with our humanity.

But on a (slightly) more genuinely feminist note, am listening to Tori Amos- Little Earthquakes. Awesome.

Pix Plz (Props to Chris for this)

The forums are generally not that cliquey though. Looking at the first 10 threads in the banter section right now (which is by far the one with the most private jokes), the only cliquey reference is a "Balls of Steel" post, which is a pretty low percentage. The general inacessibility of this forum is a bit overrated in my opinion: we're pretty welcoming to new people in general, it's just that we never get any. The main reason why it seems to be cliquey is only the "core" members of the society seem to use the forums and thus we all know each other, which might make it seem hard for other people to get into the discussions (even if it isn't). Plus, I'm beginning to think few people doing the course and even in the society are actually interested in using the forum at all (too geeky, etc), in which case there's little we can do about it.

I always try to respond to new people when they post (as a priority). Some extremely large forum communities such as the Newgrounds BBS are quite inhibitive due to the fact that no-one will reply to you if your count is <100 and your level is <20. I think our track record with actually communicating with new peeps on the forums has been above par at least.

Yes we are good at responding to new people, but if new people are too afraid to post then that counts for nothing. When I made a reference to private jokes, I didn't neccesarily mean overt ones- targeted nuances of language and references to other forum content are contributing factors also.

What we have in the forums is a common ground in which the entire community can mingle without the intimidation of talking face to face: where you can ask a 4th year how manifolds work or simply pontificate on the wonders of Colin Rourke's hot-pants. It has potential to be useful to anyone who has ever seen, been taught in or even been to the department. It's just that noone knows it yet.

Many, I suspect, would use the forums if they felt it was 'their' space, where they could discuss their stuff without fear of it being seized upon. Of course the truth is it already wouldn't be: and the outward appearance of the forums, as I was saying earlier, is so by virtue of having a population to speak of- though noone would post if there was noone here. Chicken and egg.

So all we can do is highlight it as a place to talk, use it for signups etc. and hope that people have the nerve to ask questions in the first place-treating 'em right when they get here.

What those new to the forums have to realise is that the shape of the community here is simply that of one that has been going for some time. We are not insular, just congenial, and it is neccesarily a leap of faith for new users that our congeniality will be extended to them. However, I believe it is the correct one.

I'm sure these forums are girl-friendly; or shall be now: my name is Joanna and I shall take my inspiration from that comic :B (Shocking how bad my memory is, I'll have to go through xkcd again before exams....)

You can melt our PCs if the forum becomes too cliquey? :D

Or if they become to reliant on xkcd comics?

There's clearly no such thing.

I think everyone's forgetting rule 15 of the internet, there are no girls on the internet.

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Rules_Of_The_Internet

Blimey, do you think such long forum posts are a good idea?

I think the length might be one of it's more minor problems as a forum post...

Yeah, but there are readability and browser issues. Then there's other issues with forum standards. I've been censoring myself up until now.

Not necessarily if your computer and internet connection aren't up to scratch. The forums need to cater for these people as well.

Dial up is not a race of people!! Tho we do face prejudice mentioning no names cosmin

Not that I use dial up. Are they ghosts outside?

Man, what have I started? What was this forum's original topic again?

who's moderating the forums these days?

Everybody.

Everyone except Planktonboy.

Agreed! too much xkcd does not exist...

The problem with the forum is the same as the society as a whole, it is seen as a space for the elite to congregate. Many students feel they would not be accepted as they are not part of this 'elite.' I follow the threads regularly but would (usually) never contribute.
I don't think this has anything to do with being female unless there is a trend between being female and feeling mathematically inadequate.

I suspect the trend is between feeling mathematically inadequate and being on a maths degree...

I dunno, I take your point; it's just a shame you feel that way: when we rejigged the society a couple of years ago we just wanted to make a place for people interested in maths (which, no matter what a year of pratting about with epsilons and banging your head against a blackboard has shown to the contrary, can be really interesting!) to hang out in; no assumptions of prowess or ability should have come up.

And I don't think they have... If you look at the hardcore closely, you'll see most of our 'knowledge' is cribbed from wikipedia, our only real commonality is enthusiasm for the subject we do: I'm flattered to be referred to as part of some sort of elite, but my only real skill is being interested in stuff (just ask my now 'ex'supervisees...), and that we seem intimidating is perhaps an indication that we have failed: or perhaps an indication that we are only now beginning to succeed (you did post after all!).

Either way, geekyness (thence a whiff of elitism) goes with the territory (that of enjoying something academic), but we're just people that want to talk about maths; most of the time we'll be exploring a topic for the first time, or else trying to understand an old one better- same as anyone doing the degree, it's just we only look at the interesting bits.

Come to a discussion group and you'll see the 'elite' flounder. As for on the forums- 'tis nowt but (maths)banter!

but my only real skill is being interested in stuff

This pretty much sums up my feelings about the subject as well. I was about to post a lengthier reply but Tom pretty much hit the nail on the head. I do see your point, and I have to admit I've had this attitude myself with some forums in the past (in fact this is probably the first forum for which my post count exceeds 50). I have to say though that I don't really see much that would justifiy us being viewed as an elite, either on the forums or in real life. Meeting us in real life by coming to a discussion group (or even just to the pub afterwards) would be a fairly good way to see that I think.

How about this. If anyone feels that the forum is elite then post...

... this will not work, but if I'm lucky I'll get one person to buck the trend.

My view is I am not good at maths, especially compared with some specific people I have met on the mathematics society. As a result I don't post in the Maths area of the forums, but I'd like to think there is nothing stopping people posting in the banter part of the forums.

Just look at some of the stuff me and (mentioning no specific names) Cosmin have posted in the past term. Useless spamming. You can't possibly sound stupider than us. It's more Cosmin anonymous than me (still mentioning no specific names).

I can only applaud your attempt at bringing the level of the conversation down. :P

To pick up one of your points though, thinking that you're not good at maths shouldn't stop you from posting in the "Maths" forum because there are obviously topics you're still interested in and would like to talk about (as a matter of fact your Travelling Salesman thread probably belongs in the Maths section). There's no minimum maths knowledge required to post in any part of the forums, some enthusiasm for the subject is more than enough.

I only try to better you.

If you haven't got the maths background for something you can't post about stuff you don't understand/can't be bothered taking the time to understand.

I think we don't actively try to be cliquey, it just sort of happens. for instance the last 3 posts are just cosmin and alex trolling each other. basically any thread just ends up being a spamming war which i think would put people off getting involved. also if either alex or cosmin reply to this it will only reinforce my point.

Regardless, I did make a constructive point. :p

P.S. You can quite easily post about things which you don't understand and would like to or things which you would simply like to know more about. That's actually the main purpose of the "Maths" subforum.

We've now completely digressed from this forum's original topic, but while we're talking about our feelings I may as well join in. I love the stuff we talk about. But I'm not at all sure how well I really understand it. I understand the general ideas really well, I tend to have a good feel for what the concepts are and how they fit together, but when it comes to details I can be a little weak. When I hear conversation about something quite advanced I begin to wonder what mathematical research must be like, and I ought to be prepared for the possibility that I might turn out not to be cut out for it (though I guess that happens to many people, and there are worse things). Occasionally I wonder what I'm doing at the University of Warwick's Maths Department, with several famous names attatched to it, at all. This must sound a bit angsty, I assure you I don't worry about this too much of the time. Who else wants to leap on this bandwagon of moaning about feelings of inadequacy?

By the way, I've chosen a blank image as my little picture due to lack of imagination. I'm trying to think of something better.

Wow, Houdini thread!

Cosmin with mod powers, no locks can hold him.

You can't blame me for upholding the right to free speech. :p

Whoa, what's going on here? CJ's changed his visage. This forum thread is getting unfeasably long, we ought to abandon it soon or who knows what might happen.

It's not that bad: 47 posts long compared to the 77 of Wikipedia Clicking game, 93 of Band practice, 64 of Word Game 2, etc.

48 actually

I beg to differ

What do you mean 93 for band practice? I can only see 11. Is there something about these forums I ought to know?

There are two band practice threads, I'm talking about the old one.